The original plan in 1977 was to build houses, but the county will not let us we are zoned agricultural, farm use only so we became farmers including fish farming. A new natural method of farming "Aquaponics" followed . Now we ship Channel catfish, Rainbow trout aka Steelhead, Largemouth bass, Bluegill, Tilapia and water plants all over the world. Industrial CBD hemp planted in 2019 was added to our product. We now ship Flower Buds derived from CBD hemp Marijuana TCP less than .3% world wide. 2020 is the year partnered with Poole Fisheries to sell Goldfish including Fancy Goldfish, Comets, Rosey Reds aka Flathead Minows.
20. The Trouble in River City
Livestock animals that have become domesticated by being confined and grown for food by the humane population versus those that do not want people to raise their own food. In River city they are using laws meant to protect states game animals to infringe and ultimately prevent folks from raising fish as they do other animals, which is their right, like cows, pigs, chickens and ducks all livestock. Those charged with upholding the law have reached to everyone’s waters. The right to grow your own food is just as important as the right to keep and bear arms. The right to protect you, your family your property and that includes Livestock. The definition of game fish is by the game people.
State waters / state people Game Fish
Private waters agriculture people Livestock Fish
Just because an agency is responsible for a species in state waters.
That does not give them the right to infringe on people's God given rights.
Private waters same species Livestock Fish
What is missing in the discussion is where is it?
The where tells what it is! An example a boy is a student in the classroom, an athlete on the playing field, a soldier on a battlefield. Fish are livestock when they are in their owners water. They are the state's Game fish when they are in state waters.
Grow your own food you need a permit?
How can anyone justify such a position? Few try the Kamer Rouge in Cambodia did and backed it up with an AK47 Assault rifle, but civilization in the form of the peoples Army of Vietnam put them in check. The Nazis under Hitler justified it based on Race assumptions, no facts needed. If they are Fish or if they are Jew they need a permit, period.
Not, Cows, Pigs, Chickens and Ducks they got no Fins, you do not need a permit, If they got fins? You need a Fin permit, because they got! Fins!
You need a Fin permit it is the law. So says the fish policeman. A ticket for a live fish to travel to anywhere, down the road a ways, or across country you need a Fin permit. It all depends on who you ask who are the Fish police? Only in Illinois did I find such an institution run very well for government place of business. Most will tell you fish police that is Fish and Wildlife or simply I don know and care less.
The States make the Animal laws, most states have verbiage to the effect as not required in Aquaria, for example. Oregon game fish law says except Aqauria. They go all the way and define Aqauria in the law the declare it in see, ORS 635-007-600 3a. “Aquaria use means holding fish in closed systems where untreated effluent does not enter state waters.” Aquaria is a place, a category of things, a boundary, an esthetically part any category. Like a City, County, State all area's of a country. Add the word for water Aqua which is self evidenced to it's meaning of water thru out ages ancient Latin. The part about “where untreated effluent does not enter state waters” is very boundary specific, A boundary that those known as the Fish Police do not recognize. That is the problem in River City and it effects your right to grow your own food. A God given right that no man or women or group thereof can take from you, but yet they do. Is that right? Is it a violation of our civil rights?
I have always been a fisherman, I remember the first fish I ever caught age six, tall grass and all I had to do was drop the worm on my hook in the water, which I did despite the tall grass, which was so tall because I was so short, but the joy and excitement that almost 12 inch Rainbow trout brought on was exhilarating. The water was no larger than a medium sized ditch, it is better described, as the upper reach of the Plat river in Carbon County Wyoming near Rawlins It was one of my Dads favorite fishing spots he called it “The little Plat”.
The Idea of Fish farming was planted when a Realtor buddy in Alaska said: “I just had the most flavorful fish I have ever had! Tilapia” Alaska has the greatest fishery in the world and for another Alaskan to say “most flavorful fish” It had to be special.
So I checked it out. It turns out, more Tilapia are consumed from Fish farms than other spieces of farmed fish, that's like number one. So the idea began with Tilapia the most flavorful fish in the world. The flavor is almost undetectable as most chefs love Tilapia because it takes on the flavor of the seasoning better than any other fish.
Getting The license was first step a modest fee and a short application and off to the state of Oregon Department of Fish and Wildlife I got a call from a man at Fish and Wildlife his first name was Guy. He was the man to go to at fish and Wild life for propagators like me just call me, “Guy” for all your questions he explained. The one question he had that day was water rights do I have any, and the answer needed a document he explained. So I got a letter from the state's Master Master, it said I could dig a hole in the ground and expose the water, I could put fish in the water, I could take fish out of the water, but I could not take water out of the hole or the ground, with out a license. The next thing Guy said a state Biologist will come out and make an inspection next week. The Biologist came out walked around said very little, except he did warn “Your going to have predator problems” Guy told me we had been approved for a fish propagation license, but we could not sell Tilapia, that would take permission from the Fish commission. That he could not help me with and he could not name a person I could talk to.
The Oregon Department of Fish and Wildlife is run by are a group of commissionaires, a seven-member volunteer board. Its monthly meetings are open to the public. Commission members are appointed by the Governor. That is what I knew but, Guy, he was not saying. So I looked them up in the phone book. I got a hold of the chairman’s secretary wow this lady explained the whole process and gave the name and number of a staff person, I will refer to as the “staff Guy” that would guide me through out the process so we could sell Tilapia, the fish we could sell were Trout, Channel catfish, Bass, Crappie, Bluegill and later Gambusia aka “western Mosquito fish” (Gambusia affinis) a fish that showed up in all the holes we dug. The staff guy explained we had to start with the Department of State and gave me the phone number so I called them they were quite accommodating, but they soon ask for a continuance sighting problems in scheduling, which I immediately agreed to another month went by and I got a time and date to meet the commissioners.
The meeting was at the state's Department of Fish and Wild office, a big room in a big building with lots of people it was larger than the county commissioners meeting I attended Eugene smaller than the state's assembleym but similar as the commissionaire sat elevated above the rest. An audience of Participants sat in rows of chair with staffed tables in the back and to the sides an impressive setting.
At the front table were stacks of the meeting 's agenda so I took one and sat down. The agenda included several different things but near the end was my proposed change in the law. Just the way I had drafted it. The law had been changed by the same process a couple of years earlier, but is was vague not actually granting the right to sell only propagate and only one species of Tilapia was mentioned. The 3 Most Common Types of Tilapia are, Nile Tilapia, Blue Tilapia, Mozambique Tilapia. I changed that to all species of Tilapia and the part about transportation permit to be furnish by the Propagator instead of the Department. When the chairman came to Tilapia my name was called I rose spoke briefly to the point and sat down then a couple of staff guys spoke in my support then a staff guy that seemed lost and out of place spoke against my proposal the commissioners then voted unanimously in favor of my proposal. The man who spoke against my proposal seemed confused and was then conferring with a person unknown at one of the side tables. I approached a lady of distinction at the main side table. The information table I presumed and ask who the man was the lady replied she did not know who he was, probably a new guy she said, but she identified the mam he was talking to as the Department head of the Wildlife Division. The assigned Guy then told me in, a down beat tone “the Integrity Committee had the final say and they were part of the Wildlife side of the Department their meeting was next month” I then approached the Guy I had been told was the head of the Wildlife Division and ask about the Integrity committee, only to be told “Wait I am busy” I was soon approached by another man This was a polite, self confident person that explained the commissioners voted ,but the “Integrity committee” was in charge they made the final decision, I could attend their meeting if I wanted too. I attended the Integrity committee by phone the man in charge was the same one who spoke against my suggested change change. This time he had lots of confidence and not confused at all. One of the committee members told me that they had information not available to the public that made it clear that one species of Tilapia “Aura aka Blue tilapia was cold weather tolerant and they could not allow it to live in Oregon. But they would allow four species of Tilapia that should be enough and I should attend the next Commission meeting. I did and it was totally a different type of meeting it was obvious the fix was in and I was out ,but it was mission accomplished and no big deal the fish that they had discriminated against was the very fish that Jesus fed to the multitudes of thousands out of one small basket it made since in a grotesque fashion and the whole affair opened my eyes as to the trouble ahead.
The guy named Guy was in charge and he was a marvelous public servant, he solved every problem as they came up, most problems were the individual biologist in the individual districts being Individuals. One day he said in what, I recall as frustration. “You can contact the individual biologist yourself” I will send you a Map a copy of the Districts with the biologist name and phone number. Call them not me from now on. I did as he said and soon realized why his frustration they were mostly busy and did not like to be bothered with “Fin trip permits” Just like the ones who spoke in favor of my original proposal, the one that failed, the one naming the Propagators as responsible for the Fin Trip permitting instead of the area Biologist.
Everything went OK while Guy was in charge until the day armed men showed up at my home these were not young uniformed public servant police, but the real fish cops mature smooth talking officers of the law, Trooper Jim Buchholtz of the Oregon State police and Paul Montuori Special agent Office of Law Enforcement U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service who did most of the talking he was quite personable and professional. Trooper Buchholz the state Trooper, was like every Oregon State Trooper I have ever met extremely professional and to the point “if you ship Fish with out a permit, to an Oregon address I would be arrested and charged period” Outside of Oregon was not his jurisdiction. Clear and to the point. Special Agent Montuori he was the real talker of the two and was the one who told me our conversation was being recorded and if I lied to them it would be a felony on my part. I will call him Marshal White Hat not to be confused with Marshal Black Hat yet to come. I remembered what happened to one of the Presidents men who was arrested and charged after a casual conversation with G men from the FBI, so I took a while to think through my answers. The question he ask was, “have you shipped any fish any place out of the United States the answer was no, I had tried to ship some to a Canadian up north, but was unable to get the United Parcel Service label to print, do to my lack of information required by UPS. Which I explained to Marshal White Hat and the State Trooper while we were all seated in my living room. That is when Marshal white hat pulled a copy of an invoice out of his brief case showing the Canadian purchase. The one I did not ship do to lack of info, being a number that I later got from the US Fish and wildlife service when I later purchased a license from them as per Marshal White Hat' suggestion.
By this time I had learned a lot about my favorite state agency, while growing up, the Oregon Department of Fish and Wildlife the author of the hunting and fishing regulations which was the publication that I waited for each year to plan out where to hunt and fish next. When they changed the name of the prettiest fish of all fresh water fish Dolly Varden to Bull trout I knew something was wrong, then they changed the name of the most plentiful fish Oregon called “Squaw Fish” to “Pike Minnow” the tax payers pay millions of dollars to local fishermen and women to catch this boney member of the fin community. Squaw fish have no scales like the baby Salmon Smollett they devour millions on the Salmon's maiden trip to sea. They the Salmon never return to land of small streams. Where countless animals large and small wait a year for their return. Fish, their body s flesh are designed to become the nutrients of the forests but life’s cycle of building new soils are ended before they can begin thanks to the Squaw fish.
When it seemed as the Oregon Trooper and Marshall White hat were getting ready to leave my living room, by this time I knew I needed to do as they say, but what have they said the state trooper was clear the Marshal was not, he was supper friendly but vague, so I ask him point blank. What do you want me to do? His reply was simple, but practicable it was not. “Run each sale through the Oregon Fin travel permit system”! I did not argue about it. I said “OK, I will starting this new year as this season is almost over. In January 2020 I had about a dozen out of state orders so I logged on at Oregon's Fish and Wildlife's website with my user name and password selected “new permit” filled out the questions and selected the submit button, one for each order number 4 to number 11 for the year 2020. After a couple of days they were all denied so I called the lady that answered the phone at ODFW she had denied these permits she had perfectly sounding reasons, not one of them made since, she was obviously caught by surprise she had no training on this matter, what so ever, but she was a smart dedicated personable state employee so I explained the two armed men and we agreed to talk again. So I immediately called Marshal White hat it did not take him long to get back to me. He did, he said he would talk to ODFW not who but ODFW.
White hat his report back was one permit for each species of fish good for one year. One for Tilapia, One for Trout, one for Channel catfish one for each species. That seemed reasonable I also got a name of the new person, Gabriel Garza we will call him the New Guy in charge of Fin trip permits he seemed like a conscientious state servant he was the only person there that tried to help with the Crawdad identification problem. We worked on the verbiage for the non Oregon resident Trout species Diploid (can reproduce and Triploid can not reproduce)
That year our Channel catfish per fin permit got delayed not approved just delayed that is all it took 10 days of delay ruined one entire year of business if an individual did such a thing they would be sued for Business interference a civil matter with dire consequences no businessman would take the risk. A risk not even considered by the state biologists aka “fish police”. Channel catfish hatch each summer about or very near to the 4th of July and transferred to treated ponds almost immediately. We get them direct from their hatching trays before they go to ponds because the ponds have parasites, We get them not yet parasite exposed that is a big deal to our customers there are literally Billions of Catfish hatched each year yet we have a limited supply available for a very short period of time once a year period.
We had a similar problem trout after talking directly to the new Guys supposed boss Scott and explaining the fish do not live in ponds and only Diploids are available at this time. The water right had been established to be 5,000 gallons per day plenty enough to raise and sell fry and the larger fingerlings, but not enough to raise them to market size for restaurants and fish markets. This is what he wrote in an email. David and Melissa “I need to revoke approval for permit 20-0495 for the shipment of diploid trout eggs to Green Hills Garden due to unresolved issues at the facilities. The issues are uncertainties of water rights and the holding/rearing of diploid trout within the flood plain of the Willamette basin. I could approve the shipment of triploid eggs as we work through the water right issues, but the combine issue makes approval less reasonable. Please continue to work with the district biologists to resolves these differences”.
Fish Propagation Manager, ODFW
4034 Fairview Industrial Drive SE
Salem, Oregon 9730
Who told him to change his mind he never revealed, but it was about this time that he expressed frustration and bringing the US Marshall to the problem was my fault, but he also said I hope you and Jeramy can work things out. Jeramy who is my question? Mr Patterson is an extra ordinary career bureaucrat with excellent working habits and no BS reputation, but he has avoided me despite my requests for a sit down discussion of the facts. Who is pulling his chain? I do not know.
Then the new Guy sent the oddest letter of all communications a supposed to be registered letter, but sent regular mail saying I was not supposed to ship fish out of state despite the fact that he personally had approved a permit in effect at the time, authorizing out of state shipments. I was concerned so I called the state trooper he did not answer so I left a message saying; I just got a letter from the new Guy at ODFW saying I was not supposed to ship out of state. Has anything changed since we last talked on this subject? If so please contact me ASP. I also called Marshal white hat he never responded either. Then I looked again at the new Guy's letter and to my surprise was the very law ORS 635-007-600 Except Aquaria species intended for aquaria use ORS 635-007-600 3a. Aquaria use means holding fish in closed systems where untreated effluent does not enter state waters. Why did he include it I do not know he seemed like a good man trying to do the right thing but this was more of a singmond slip, like in time often referred to as a “freudian slip” Making the unconscious conscious
Psychoanalytic theory postulates a multitude of different change mechanisms, and a host of new ways of conceptualizing the change process continue to emerge as psychoanalytic theories themselves evolve and proliferate. At the most basic level, there is an understanding that change generally involves making the unconscious conscious, as expressed by Freud’s oft cited axiom: “Where id has been there shall ego be.” Although Freud’s understanding of the nature of the change process evolved over the course of his lifetime, central to his mature thinking was the idea that change involves first becoming aware of our instinctual impulses and unconscious wishes, and then learning to deal with them in a mature, rational, and reflective fashion. For Freud, a central premise was thus that we are driven by unconscious wishes that we are unaware of and this lack of awareness results in driven or self-defeating behavior. Freud believed we delude ourselves about reasons for our behaviors and this self-deception limits our choice. By becoming aware of our unconscious wishes and our defenses against them we increase the choices available to us. Thus, as we decrease the extent to which we are driven by unconscious factors we assume a greater degree of agency. So they scientists say. I say the new Guy is a spiritual being and a higher force for good exist despite all the evil around him, when push comes to a shove he will do the right thing as he did here and probably is unaware of his good deed when he did it.
The District Biologist for my area Jeff Ziller as per Scott Patterson request I continued to work with him. He listened to all my problems the water rights, the short windows of availability in one ear and out the other. His focus was my lack of responsibility in shipping Crawdads. Crawdads are an item of, every fish species, in a drop down menu on ODFW website. The fact that Invasive Crawdads were released negligently in water just upstream from our fish farm by school children and the state new about it and never notified us farmers, no comment. School children in the state of Oregon were given these invasive crustaceans as school projects so they blame it on school children and not tell us that is responsible? Louisiana ships over 80,000 tons of live crayfish every year Mr Ziller did not know anything about that is Louisiana not Oregon
The first I ever heard of the Invasive species “Red swamp crayfish” was I got a phone call from a newspaper in Grants Pass Oregon. The voice said we have a police report That a shipment of Red Swamp Crayfish was confiscated by police today that was shipped to a Grants Pass residence do you have a comment? The voice had no other information no names, address no anything other than a report. So I called the State Trooper and he said he would check it out and get back to me. Trooper Butchholz was soon at my door he confirmed the report they did have an invasive crawdad shipment. I then ask him? Am I in trouble? His reply was no, I had followed the law.
The call made my phone ring and voice that came forth, made my brain ring, it was a man who wanted to come get a quantity of fish several different species right now. He was obviously talking nonsense to haul what he wanted he would need a fish truck like the kind one sees every day in Arkansas, but never in Oregon and his gutter mouth on permits and the law were insulting so I abruptly ended that call, believing happy hour was in effect somewhere. Then an order came in that I could not understand or find any clue as to from or why and it was a big one the biggest I had ever had. It was like gutter mouth wanting to come pick them up. The issue was to much it did not make since so I decided to talk to the authorities so the next Day off Marshal white hat office it was a two hour drive north in Wilsonville just south of Portland all locked up with a sign and a phone number to call, so I called it. A lady answered the phone I told her why I was there and she said no one was there that could help me, but she would pass my message on. I barely got started down I-5 headed back home when my phone rang it was Special m Agent Steve Stoinski from Lander Wyoming we will call him Marshal Black hat cause if the shoe fits wear it. He said he was in charge of my Investigation and that I should route all calls to him. He went on to claim authorities in Seven States were looking for me regarding the Interstate trafficking in fish, he went on to name the states. Black hat was condescending and the more he talked the more he sounded like gutter mouth, so after telling him why I was in Willsonville, I told him he sounded just like the caller and that I was on my way to the State Troopers office with a copy of the Invoice, that put a hush on his bark. By then I was at the state troopers office south of Salem. Trooper Buchholz was not in, but another officer said he would pass the information to Trooper Buchholz. The next day Trooper Buchholz called he reported that the purchaser was in Colorado. That did not explain the will come get them question?
After considerable thinking what did I do that I wish I had not done. In my first contact with Wyoming Game and Fish Department and my license application pending I placed a craigslist add in Wyoming. Wyoming was a no go meaning nothing to Wyoming period, we found out later they consider Tilapia tropical fish so they can be shipped to Wyoming no problem. At the time I considered Wyoming off base we had plenty of business with out Wyoming. So why would I want an add in Wyoming? The answer is I didn't. I lost sleep over that question and this is what happened I think. Working late at night after a busy day dealing with my favorite people “my customers” doing craigslist adds can be therapeutic they take little thinking like video poker the faster you play the more you get done. The letters “wy” for Wyoming and the letters “wv” for West Virginia caused a case of mistaken identity, my mistake and a costly one at that. It justified Marshal Black Hat's claim “proof of intent” Why did you place an ad in Wyoming after you knew better? I could not say why, it was a mistake unintentional, but a mistake not meant to happen, but it did I made a mistake and I regret it big time.
The large mystery order turned out to be a neighbor that had recently purchased what was my competition in the fish farm business. He owned land all over the country, but did not know why the trooper would think he was in Colorado, I never saw the trooper again, but I did learn of an undercover operation out of Colorado done in secret and most likely had something to do with it.
Remember the letter from the new guy at ORFW letter saying I could not ship because I did not have any authority and enclosed a copy of the statute pertaining to the shipping of fish. We added it to the purchase description and understanding as to Aquaria is where the fish were going So we stated our authority to ship fish “ORS 635-007-600 3a. Aquaria use means holding fish in closed systems where untreated effluent does not enter state waters. We added “contact state for pond stocking permits.” in each invoice and sent it a copy, with all shipped fish there after.
By this time a lawyer seemed a good idea, but where do start well I was married to the best lawyer I knew so I started there. Linda recommended asking our water rights advocates, the folks a father and son team surveyors specializing in water right's applications, that lead to a distinguish Salem lawyer who when he heard it involved water right he said that an easy recommend Laura A Schroeder in Portland my Assigned lawyer, a young fellow who did a great job of explaining Oregon state administrative law to me. Basically what he said was I had to exhaust the administrative law before I could seek action on a civil matter. There were ethics and I could seek another but they were bound by ethics, I did not want an unethical lawyer so I agreed I wanted a professional lawyers and that was important.
The water rights issue was squashed I had 5,000 gallons of water per day to use for commercial purposes and that included raising fish for profit. Plenty of water to raise fingerlings, but no where near enough to raise Steel-head to market. Now we have the water rights, but we can not get eggs because of the required Fin permits. Soon the focus was on answering the ODFW questions and they had lots of them, they wanted to know the size of every fish tank and the working detail of each system thereof. They gathered all kinds of unknown information like there was a criminal investigation on going. That led to being warned that they were civil lawyers not criminal lawyers and I needed a criminal lawyer. They soon found one we will call him Michael. A conference call was arranged Laura and her para legal assistant, myself and Michael who did most of the talking he advised me not to talk to the police and why. I explained I had already done that and what I had said, the crawdads everything. He said it sounded like an interesting case. He would need a cash retainer of $5,000 and that we could let his office know. We did not have the cash so we talked it down to three thousand and that took a while to gather in the mean time we worked on the application for license renewal. When we finally got the cash together and stuck it in the mail, Michael office called and said Michael was busy and could not help us.
Soon Laura's office was working with a lady we will call her lady justice, from the department of justice more questions, Anika E. Marriott Assistant Attorney General Oregon Department of Justice appeared it seemed like we were gaining and I actually thought we were going to get our license renewed until the last day of December 2020. Scott Patterson sent a letter that spelled the end of our business